Summarised by Centrist
ACT leader David Seymour and Ngāti Toa leader Helmut Modlik engaged in a debate on The Working Group podcast.
The debate centred around the Treaty of Waitangi’s role in New Zealand, with Modlik defending the treaty as a basis for co-governance and Māori sovereignty, while Seymour advocated for the Treaty Principles Bill to ensure equal rights for all New Zealanders.
Seymour’s main argument was that the current interpretation of the treaty, which emphasises a partnership between Māori and the Crown, has led to racial division. He stressed that the treaty should instead be about equal rights, saying, “My call is to stop dividing people by their ethnicity and their race.”
Seymour insisted that the treaty granted the Crown the right to govern and that New Zealand’s democracy should be based on universal equality. “What use is a constitutional framework if it doesn’t allow people to overcome their problems and solve their dreams?” he asked, highlighting the importance of practical outcomes.
Modlik, however, argued that Māori never ceded sovereignty to the Crown. Unable to answer directly what that meant in practical terms today, Modlik, in a slightly awkward moment, likened it to his experience of dual citizenship to explain his vision for the future: “My dad’s German, so I’ve got a German citizenship. It is strange, isn’t it?… is the issue of dual citizenship problematic? Historically, currently, and future? No, it isn’t.”
However, Seymour pointed out that when Modlik was in Germany, he would be subject to German law. But in New Zealand, everyone should follow the same laws and have the same rights, instead of giving different legal rights to people based on their race.
The moderator’s bias against Seymour appeared evident throughout, undermining an otherwise important debate.
